Introducing Karlsen

They have to read the books. It's not Amber without the background.

At least in the main.

I could see maybe 1 of several characters that did not read the books being a fun wildcard, but not everyone...

We're already sounding like the original Illuminati game, actually. Mildly, anyway. And I had a lot of fun with that game, having never read the original source books. (Though, the game did make me want to go back and read them. I think that trilogy is still bigger than the whole 10 volumes of Amber, so I've been a bit leary of starting it up, at least until I finish school.)

Yeah, word.

They really do have to read the books to really get the concept. Describing them as having power levels similar to Captain America, I think, would give the wrong impression, would conjure the wrong 'feel...i.e. that they are like superheroes. You might simply say that their physical and mental/psyche attributes are beyond the typical limits of humankind - as well as explaining their abilities to travel to/create probable worlds and the intrigue of the series - since it's really more about that than 'power levels'.

Kierenne wrote:We're already sounding like the original Illuminati game, actually. Mildly, anyway. And I had a lot of fun with that game, having never read the original source books. (Though, the game did make me want to go back and read them. I think that trilogy is still bigger than the whole 10 volumes of Amber, so I've been a bit leary of starting it up, at least until I finish school.)

Yeah, I'm diggin' how the game is moving.

You mean the Illuminatus Trilogy? Didn't know they made a game for that but I suppose I should've guessed.

You'd really want to just have all of the "characters" be identically, stat-wise.

And for heaven's sake, don't allow a player to be Benedict. That's the "Okay, I win." character, after all. But Benedict could be an action / influence you can play. (e.g. - While Benedict is in play, nobody may attack whichever player currently controls Amber itself. Assume that Benedict would take the stance of supporting whoever was in charge, just to keep the most peace.)

That only really works in a M:tG paradigm, though. Haven't played a whole lot of Dominion, but I guess Benedict could be one of those effects that goes into play, lasts the round, then vanishes. Just to stop combat briefly, but he'd leave shortly.

@Aiden - Steve Jackson Games came out with a closed deck (plus a buttload of counters, and dice) game called Illuminati, based on the Illuminatus trilogy. Once M:tG got popular, they tried to turn that into a collectable card game called Illuminati: New World Order (INWO), that did okay, but of course never came close to M:tG. It was more or less the same as Illuminati, only with a much larger set of cards, and you didn't necessarily get all of them in any pack. (Later, the started selling the "Complete Set" with a different background, so the collector's cards would be fine, but players who just wanted to do a "one of everything" game could do that without having to hunt down all the weird cards.)

Amberites are hard to describe from the outside, especially in a world of superheroes and other things that are way more "powerful". Superman lifts 500 ton jets while Corwin and Random worked together to lift a car.

But that being said I find that the movie Rambo (the last one) gives a nice approximation of an Amberite. He is obviously stronger than everyone. There is a sense that he is the best there is. Even though the team of special forces guys around him are younger. And he pretty much goes into a gun fight with a knife...........and a bow and some guns. But you get my point. I sort of imagine him as an Amberite who wandered in shadow to find a place to relax and then he is forced to use his skills again.

Anyway, there is no perfect example, but I think that movie has a similar tone to how I picture an Amberite.

Well in my game he is only available as a card to support your deck. A VERY expensive card. Very hard to get until late in the game, but he is a bit one dimentional. Well let me get a bit of play testing done this week and then I will post up the game if someone has a limited access site. I could use some input on it.

Yeah I keep telling them to read the books. Like I said it was an off the cuff remark for the Cap comparison. Struggling to get them into it, sigh.

I'd like to see your game prototype, K.

I have explained the Amber characters as archetypes of fantasy thrown into a multi-world, fight-for-the-throne setting. The main character is a noir-ish prince who toughs out beatings, injuries, and betrayal while fighting to become the king of everything. Although he is superpowered he isn't the greatest swordsman, or sorcerer, or the strongest in the family, but has to fight or outsmart his way through his siblings to get what he wants.

Have your friends read any of the Wheel of Time? Tell them it's like that but good. And the whole series moves at a quick pace without any braid pulling or excessive description of embroidered scrollwork on sleeves.

That's one thing I really like is that most of the characters fit a niche that they represent but are strong individual characters in themselves. This actually helps make the transition into them being the main arcana in the trumps as it gives their cards some interpretation.

The characters that don't work well in the chronicles are the ones that are poorly sculpted, like Llewella. We know very little of her from the books other than she holds herself aloof of the others in Rebma.

One of the attractions and difficulties about Amber canon characters vs. translating them into RPG terms is the tendency of everyone - GM and player alike - to want their great characters to have no weaknesses. But Amberites are a "curious mixture of gold and clay" as Roger put it.

Given the right circumstances (time and lack of interference mostly) that can create/find/destroy whole worlds and civilizations with just their psyches.

But they aren't notably faster than high human norm - remember Merlin was in the Olympic trials but did not qualify. No Cap America type of running 50 miles per hour or whatever.

They are 6-10 times human norm based on the Mercedes lift (curb weight around 4000 lb) - a strong fit man should be able to deadlift 2-300 lb which translates into an Amberite lifting 1200-3000 lb. But in the books this mostly translated into a better general ability to do things i.e., use a "light...broadsword..." (Greyswandir) like a fencing blade (as the duels Roger described use fencing terms and moves almost impossible for a human with a broadsword). You don't see much of the superhero-like throwing people around, except once with Gerard I recall.

Endurance/toughness/healing is well above human norms but it's not Wolverine either. Wounds still hurt and can kill.

So really, in superhero terms you have people of Batman-like top-human stats, plus some mystical powers that can range into godlike terms.

Wasn't Merlin up drinking all night before the trials or something? And I thought him and Luke qualified but never went any further. They just did it to see if they could.


Either way, Merlin is a far cry from the physical specimen that is an Amberite. He's like Corwin's tiny asthmatic son.

"Something you said didn't really register properly at the time," he stated, "because I was more
interested in other aspects of the situation. You say that you and Luke actually made it up to the finals for
the Olympics and then dropped out?"
"Yes."
"What area?"
"Several different track and field events.We were both runners and-- "

You are correct, I misremembered.

But the point is still valid, I think - their peformance wasn't so far above human norm as to seem magical. No leaping flatfooted from floor to balcony or anything like that.

Can Cap run that fast? I don't read Marvel comics very often so I don't know. I saw the movie and thought 'he is the best a human can be, but still can be hurt and potentially killed'.

I think Winnow has summed it up best. Should have thought of Batman/Bruce Wayne + Mystical powers. That they would have understood better. Now if I can just get them to read the books ...

Cap is a much better example than Batman, but neither are strong enough. Corwin and Random lift a car. That is beyond Batman on his best day. Cap is maybe in that range, but he is the peak human. Amberites are above human. Zelazny is really clear about this.

As for the running. That is an unfair comparison. We understand the physics of running much better now than we did 40 years ago. Strength and the speed of the foot strike play a much bigger role than we realized. Hence Cap in modern day running really fast because of his muscles.

If Z wrote the books today, Merlin, who is a chaosite in physical stats they way he is written in the books, would have probably run faster.

I think Zelazny did not want this physical superhuman-ness to be the focus of the story, that's why it was not the DEFINING difference, but merely A difference. You could easily imagine a Royal Amberite who was physically ordinary - it's the ability to use Power that sets them apart.

If he didn't want it to be part of the story he wouldn't have included it. Guessing at the authors subtext is fun but far from a compelling argument.

Part of the idea was that no normal human could survive the strain of gaining those powers. Hence the physical capabilities being a big deal. Walking the Pattern was physically taxing. Also why the broken pattern was so important because it allowed normal folk to get a shot at some power.

Just my two cents.

Karlsen wrote:Can Cap run that fast? I don't read Marvel comics very often so I don't know. I saw the movie and thought 'he is the best a human can be, but still can be hurt and potentially killed'.

I think Winnow has summed it up best. Should have thought of Batman/Bruce Wayne + Mystical powers. That they would have understood better. Now if I can just get them to read the books ...

As far as his FASERIP stats in the old Marvel game, he was augmented to be as strong, quick, etc. as it is possible to be without being superhuman.

Triton wrote:If he didn't want it to be part of the story he wouldn't have included it. Guessing at the authors subtext is fun but far from a compelling argument.

I didn't say it was a compelling argument. I said "I think."

You and straw men are well acquainted.

Triton wrote:Cap is a much better example than Batman, but neither are strong enough. Corwin and Random lift a car. That is beyond Batman on his best day. Cap is maybe in that range, but he is the peak human. Amberites are above human. Zelazny is really clear about this.

As for the running. That is an unfair comparison. We understand the physics of running much better now than we did 40 years ago. Strength and the speed of the foot strike play a much bigger role than we realized. Hence Cap in modern day running really fast because of his muscles.

If Z wrote the books today, Merlin, who is a chaosite in physical stats they way he is written in the books, would have probably run faster.

As far as strength goes, there is/was an entry in the old Guiness Book of a power lifter who could deadlift over 3 tons, so I would put Corwin (and probably most of the Amberites except Gerard - remember Deirdre picking up a wolf/beast and snapping it's back over her knee) around there. I remember old Golden Circle sights talking about how Chaosites are several times stronger than humans and characters with 'Amber-level' stats are several times as strong as them....to the absurd tune of an Amberite being something like 64 times as strong as a Human(rolls-eyes). I guess that's part of the gamebook mechanics, but there really was no evidence of 'super' strength, again accepting Gerard. Several times stronger than the average human? Okay, I can buy that. Their endurance was certainly 'superhuman' (giving the ability to walk the Pattern and regenerate damage) and probably their fighting skill as well- simply because of having centuries with which to practice. The 'strength' thing always made me raise a quizzical eyebrow.

The record for a raw deadlift (a deadlift performed without the aid of a deadlift suit, where only a weight belt is allowed) is 460.4 kg (1,015 lb) by Brett Conwill. The record for an equipped deadlift (a deadlift performed using a deadlift suit using a standard bar and plates where straps are disallowed) is 457.5 kg (1,009 lb) by Andy Bolton.

3 tons is 6000 pounds.

Corwin, a couple weeks after having both legs broken, and Random, a little guy, deadlift 2000 lbs apiece with no weight belt or gloves and no indication they are at their limits.

Gerard, who presumably actually TRAINS, has a strength described as "a thing out of legend."

Winnow wrote:The record for a raw deadlift (a deadlift performed without the aid of a deadlift suit, where only a weight belt is allowed) is 460.4 kg (1,015 lb) by Brett Conwill. The record for an equipped deadlift (a deadlift performed using a deadlift suit using a standard bar and plates where straps are disallowed) is 457.5 kg (1,009 lb) by Andy Bolton.

3 tons is 6000 pounds.

Corwin, a couple weeks after having both legs broken, and Random, a little guy, deadlift 2000 lbs apiece with no weight belt or gloves and no indication they are at their limits.

Gerard, who presumably actually TRAINS, has a strength described as "a thing out of legend."

Yeah, I know. Just found the link...It was a 'backlift', whatever that is, not a 'deadlift'. I'll see if I can post the link..

http://adventure.hubpages.com/hub/Worlds-Strongest-Man-3-Generations

Top of the page. Paul Anderson

Though it was a shadow shifted car. Could that have lightened the car? Remember we are talking about a 70s era Mercedes here. Lighter would not have been difficult to achieve! (tried to find weights to compare with and didn't come up with much in 5 min I was willing to take)

And what was the shadow they were in? If I remember right Random walked around a bit, couldn't he have shifted a bit to lighten the load? Just looked, he even says something to Corwin about 'lesser gravitation' pg 51 of 9PinA. So how much did he change things? Hard to tell.

Didn't realise that I was opening such a big can of worms!

You opened it. Now you gotta eat it. mmmmm Yummy, giant worms......er, GRABOIDS!

Winnow wrote:
I didn't say it was a compelling argument. I said "I think."

You and straw men are well acquainted.

Straw men? Is this always how you react when you lose a debate?

Maybe gakh instead?